Tank from ww2

Discussion on the tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles, which participated in World War 2.
jpat01
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Tank from ww2

Postby jpat01 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:16 am

Hello,

I do not know if this is even the correct forum, but I found it by googling :)

I have this tank in my backyard; it is a tank from WW2. I don't know much about these tanks, but I recon it is a M10 TD?

Anyways, I am considering whether to just dump it at the 'car' graveyard or to restore it. Restoring it would cost a lot of $$ given the current state of the tank. Would it be worthwhile restoring it so that I could sell it for a profit?

Here are some pictures - could you guys also tell me what kind of tank it is? The pictures are located on imgur.com (external site).

http://i.imgur.com/YdIbxip.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nRKN5PK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/F15zcmr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8FUFLP3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dNl3Hj1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tOVmrmO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Sbjl7Sb.jpg


Thanks in advance.

Kindly,
J. Thomsen

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby The Toastinator » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:09 pm

I'd be inclined to say don't jump the gun and sell it for scrap just yet. Even in its current condition I'd be surprised if someone somewhere wasn't willing to offer you that or more for it (And scrap steel, you'd be lucky to get more than a couple of thousand £ for it in the UK, minus costs for recovering and transporting of course), although that again is likely to vary based on how complete it is, if it's just an empty shell I'd guess it'll be worth less than if it's basically complete but none-working.

It will be worth more if you can restore it, the more completely you restore it the more it'll be worth, running condition being the most desirable, whether it'd be worth the time, effort and money to do so is another matter since naturally finding spares for a 70+ year old tank is likely to be no trivial matter.

One thing to consider though is the condition of the gun. A lot will depend on the specific laws where you are and where you might end up selling it to, but even if the mechanism is rusted solid if it's not been properly decomissioned (And what constitutes that alone is likely to vary from location to location) that might be an issue.

Where abouts are you (I'm guessing somewhere in north America from your reference to $)? The costs of recovering and transporting, even just to a local scrap yard are likely to be significant, but at least if you sold it as is you could specify that the buyer has to arrange the collection. Yet another consideration though is how difficult this is going to be, it looks from your pictures like it's a fair distance off-road, are you willing to have heavy duty recovery equipment churning up your land?

One last thing, I think a side-on profile shot would probably be a help in identifying the tank.

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby jpat01 » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:58 pm

Hello

thank you for your reply. I'm actually located in Denmark. :)

I can get a better picture of the tank from the side, but here is one I took along with the others: http://i.imgur.com/ug1cTyh.jpg

If that picture is not enough, I'll take another later on.

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby FNG » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:15 pm

are there any national tank museums as they may be interested and will have facilities to move it.

I would also be wary as to any ammo or arms that are on or around it too.

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby Ricky » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:58 am

It is an Achillies - an M10 re-armed with a British 17pdr gun.

I'm sure museums or private collectors would love to buy it...
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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby The Toastinator » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:17 pm

And a quick Google search shows a fully restored Achilles for sale in Kent a couple of years ago for £260,000.

That's a potentially very valuable bit of kit you've got there.

http://www.milweb.net/webverts/63208/

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby Ricky » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:23 am

Can I ask how it ended up in your garden?
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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby Hoosier » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:01 pm

The Ropkey Armor Museum comes to mind... but Denmark is a long ways off.
http://www.ropkeyarmormuseum.com

They have a staff to oversee, restore and maintain a running collection of WW2--and post war subjects.
I'd hate to see anything like this scrapped.
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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby jpat01 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:05 pm

Hello,

sorry for the late reply. £260.000 hmm that's allot of money. How much approx would you guys recon it would cost to restore it. OR would I get anything out of it in its current state? Its taking up space as of now :ugeek:

regards

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby FNG » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:47 pm

Probably cost you about £25K to restore to that level plus many hundreds of hours of specialist engineering labour

Not many people or places can restore tanks

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby The Toastinator » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:01 pm

jpat01 wrote:Hello,

sorry for the late reply. £260.000 hmm that's allot of money. How much approx would you guys recon it would cost to restore it. OR would I get anything out of it in its current state? Its taking up space as of now :ugeek:

regards


Sorry to contradict FNG here, but I doubt anyone is going to be able to give you any kind of realistic estimate based on what you've been able to show us so far either for the value or for the cost of a restoration. There are just far too many variables.

Exactly how complete is it? For example, is the engine even there? If so what condition is the engine in? Is the engine repairable, or will it need replacing? All of the previous applies to stearing gear, transmission, turret gear. How many parts or pieces have been salvaged or stolen over the years? Were they properly removed or was anything damaged in the process?

How much rusting is there? The tank has clearly been left to the elements for some time, but how much of the rusting is superficial and how much damage if any has it caused to the structure. This probably more than anything is what may make the difference between something that can be restored to running condition and something that may only be fit for restoration to static display and that will affect the value.

What about the guns? Have they been properly decomissioned? Is there any documentation to support that (I'm guessing probably not)? Will they need inspected/recertificated/legally decomissioned before it can be sold?

Are the wheels and tracks repairable or even usable? Will they require partial or total replacements?

How authentically do you want it restored? Sourcing original parts is likely to be more pricey than accepting modern reproductions, but would likely lead to a higher sale price if you were to restore and sell it on.

These are just a few things off the top of my head which will affect the value or cost of restoration, many of which will probably not be apparent without more information or even seeing the tank in person.

For a good starting point, the link I posted mentions the company that restored the other Achilles that was for sale. Whilst they're UK based, I'd suggest that may be a good starting point especially as they've had fairly recent experience with this type. Otherwise, local armour museums may be a good place to start, or for other UK contacts try the Bovington Tank Museum or the Imperial War Museum Duxford who have a considerable tank collection and do restoration and conservation work on site.

To be honest, it probably needs an expert eye to physically look over it (and under it, and inside it ideally).

Just be aware that the other one apparently took 2 years to get restored, with that in mind I think FNG's estimate of £25K is probably very optimistic.

I would be willing to be though that if you could get it to the point that the engine works and the thing moves under its own power that would massively increase the desirability of it and the price you could sell it for, even if you leave the rest of the work up to whoever ended up buying it.
Last edited by The Toastinator on Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby FNG » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:04 pm

£25K is for parts only

new engine, tracks, transmission, fixtures and fittings

It's the labour that's the killer though, as I said many hundreds of hours which if you had to pay for would be expensive because few people/places can work on such specialised vehicles.

But it was all tongue in cheek though.
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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby The Toastinator » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:02 pm

Like I said though, without knowing the precise condition of the Achilles that's basically just an exceedingly rough guess. The engine could be in place, having been properly mothballed and require relatively little work to get running, the engine could be missing and the engine bay filled with concrete, or anywhere in between. The same kind of extremes could apply to almost everything else. The tank itself could be one strong hit with a sledgehammer away from literally falling to pieces. We just don't know. £25K might be a reasonable figure, of course it could just as easily be half that or it could be double that.

I agree though that the labour's likely to be the greatest expenditure. I'd imagine two guys working full time for two years working, sourcing parts, etc, you could easily be looking at something like £25K+ per person per year in wages. That's around £100K in labour. Of course if you can find a buyer at £260K you'll still make a good profit, just assuming you have around a spare £150K to get it to that condition first and I wouldn't expect to see much change out of that £150K either, bearing in mind of course that this is largely plucking numbers out of the air on the basis of guesswork. Saying all this, we've got no idea what condition the other Achilles was in when restoration started, but I think it's fair to say that this one doesn't exactly look like it's been lovingly cared for.

Of course this is wild speculation since I don't know what sort of rate such a project would be charged at or if anywhere would devote all their energies full time to a single project like that, but £25K/year is definitely low-balling it for specialist engineers and would probably not be unreasonable even if only part-time.

For anything more than wild guesswork though, the experts who do this for a living are the guys to speak to.

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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby JCalhoun » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:57 am

You could possibly donate it to a military museum and get a nice tax credit.
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Re: Tank from ww2

Postby The Toastinator » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:00 pm

I can't speak for the way Denmark does things but here in the UK such a charitable donation would be just that, a donation, and unless you run your own business or are self employed and have a very good accountant you're highly unlikely to see any benefit from donating something like this, aside from the knowledge that other people will hopefully eventually enjoy your old tank.

Actually though that's a good point to consider in general, you may also need to check your local tax laws since in the UK at least you'll probably have to pay tax on the profit at least of such a sale as I'm fairly confident this would be considered income.


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