German tanks could stand back and just pickoff the Cromwell

Discussion on the tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles, which participated in World War 2.
FNG
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German tanks could stand back and just pickoff the Cromwell

Postby FNG » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:28 pm

hi,

not my quote or comment

It's from here - https://twitter.com/mooretanks/status/6 ... 1953391618

https://twitter.com/mooretanks - My Uncle Sid was tank crew in a M4 Sherman in Normandy. I love tanks http://mooretanks.com

This is the article in more depth - http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-w ... iving.html

What's people's views on this?

Can I also check a few things?
He says
The 75 mm gun would have been okay to stop Panzer Mark III and Mark VI tanks in the desert, but in Normandy the British were going to be up against Panther and Tiger tanks. This gun was not up to the job.


So what were the numbers of Tigers and Panthers in Normandy compared to Mark Vi's and others (Stugs etc)
What were the number of 88 AT gun's compared to others like the 75?
Basically, what were the chances of a tank crew encountering an 88 AT or Tiger/Panther compared to anything else?

Also

What was the true performance of this gun with it's appropriate AT ammo types?

FNG
War: God's way of teaching American's geography

Ricky
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Re: German tanks could stand back and just pickoff the Cromw

Postby Ricky » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:13 am

Oh dear lord.

The German tanks could stand back and just pickoff the Cromwell tanks at long range

The Normandy terrain came as something as a shock to the desert veterans. Out in North Africa, if the enemy got within 500 m of you that was far too near. With the French 7 foot field hedges you could not tell if there was a German gun or tank on the other side


Did he not proof-read this before he posted it?

The shells from the 88 mm gun on the Tiger tank just tore through the armour of the Cromwell tank like a hot knife through butter

True... but then the Tiger was a (fairly rare) heavy tank, the Cromwell was a medium tank. Why the [heavily censored] can't people understand that and stop comparing apples to figs?
Take the British 'heavy' in Normandy - the Churchill VII - and the Tiger can't penetrate it at all (frontally)
Take the German medium (still the Pz IV) and the Cromwell is equal. Or, as you say, StuGs.
Take the Panther, and the Cromwell is inferior... but then the Panther was a heavy in all but classification.


So what were the numbers of Tigers and Panthers in Normandy compared to Mark Vi's and others (Stugs etc)

Don't know how true this is, but picked it out of a forum thanks to Google:
Tiger II 12. Tiger I 126. Panther 655. Panzer IV 897. Panzer III 30. Stug III 453. Brummbar <28

What were the number of 88 AT gun's compared to others like the 75?

Lower. :P Without proper research I couldn't say for sure, but 50mm guns and 75mm guns would both have been more common than the 88.
Mind you, at typical Normandy ranges both of those could fairly reliably kill the Cromwell (much as the Allied AT guns could reliably kill German tanks...)

Basically, what were the chances of a tank crew encountering an 88 AT or Tiger/Panther compared to anything else?

Slim, except for the Panther. But as above, almost any encounter at Normandy ranges was basically decided by who got an accurate shot in first. As the Germans were on the defensive, that favoured them.

What was the true performance of this gun with it's appropriate AT ammo types?

Gun stats can be found here in handy pictoral form
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/

Actual penetration tables for the 75mm QF are hard to find. It had the same ammo as the US 75mm (as n the Sherman) but a longer barrel, so should therefore have a slightly higher muzzle velocity and a slightly better performance.
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FNG
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Re: German tanks could stand back and just pickoff the Cromw

Postby FNG » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:26 pm

so in summary

The Cromwell was a reasonable medium tank certainly in keeping with it's piers (Sherman, P IV)

The chances of a Cromwell encountering anything bigger (Panther, Tiger, 88mmAT) was much lower than encountering it's piers (75AT, PIV) or something crappier

But the terrain meant that everyone was equally vulnerable due to the ranges involved but the Germans had the advantage as they were static in ambush positions

So on the whole a fairly biased and unsupported article which plays into the common misconceptions surrounding German equipment in WW2

Although I do accept that the hatches look very small although I have to say that no hatch would be big enough in my mind if I was forced to sit inside a fuel/explosive filled box.

FNG
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Ricky
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Re: German tanks could stand back and just pickoff the Cromw

Postby Ricky » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:31 pm

FNG wrote:So on the whole a fairly biased and unsupported article which plays into the common misconceptions surrounding German [and Allied] equipment in WW2

Agreed, with a slight modification ;)

FNG wrote:Although I do accept that the hatches look very small although I have to say that no hatch would be big enough in my mind if I was forced to sit inside a fuel/explosive filled box.

True. But then from what I have read, it is amazing how quickly men can wriggle through a small hole when their fuel/explosives filled box is on fire
However, unarguably a suitably sized escape hatch is better than a small one. On the other hand, a needlessly big one is just a weak spot in your armour... Plus the Cromwell didn't really have any areas that could take a bigger hatch - the hatch is the height of the hull side above the track guard, and couldn't be extended without making the hull higher
"Study the past, if you would divine the future"
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"I am pedantic, I'm just being overshadowed by Ricky so it isn't as noticable as it would else have been"
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Ricky
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Re: German tanks could stand back and just pickoff the Cromw

Postby Ricky » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:08 pm

On the subject of Tigers... according to here ( http://www.warhistoryonline.com/militar ... write.html ) Steven Zaloga reckons that American-crewed tanks only encountered the Tiger I 3 times in Europe - and one for of those they were loaded on a train.
"Study the past, if you would divine the future"
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