The P-40 Warhawk

[Blaster]

Right, Hoosier.

[wooden major]

a handful of russian pilots did well in the p39 , most were sent eathward quickly like their comrads in p40s .a few german aces , like galland and molders started their careers in spain , the great majority of p39 and p40 killers did not ..im not sure why the germans had such a wild disparity in success over allied pilots but they certainly did .

the very top allied aces had about 40 kills each , the top russian ace had about 80 kills , most in a p39 ...contrast this to the top LW aces , there were one hundred german pilots who personally shot down over one hundred allied planes ...i know the germans often started earlier ,had more targets and mostly stayed in harness for the duration , still this seems an unbelivable disparity ..if the 109 wasent that much better , was it the training ? ..this seems dubious , i doubt many germans enjoyed getting 350 hours of stick time prior to entering combat , as US pilots did .many germans entered combat with less than half that much time and were aces before they logged 500 hrs tolal .

very few of these lw super aces started in spain , ie hartman didnt really start his career until 1943 . it is also a myth that most of these super pilots were exclusive to the russian front , ie capt priller spent his entire career in the west ,and if we count only his spitfire kills , we see an astounding 70 victorys ..given that german pilots had good planes, good training and lots of combat sorties , still this huge disparity is something of an enigma , no ?

the vast majority of p39s and 40s we sent to russia were shot to peices before the painted red stars were quite dry ..if the curtis was even a slightly better plane at low altitude we should expect that SOME of them could survive long enough to get their first oil change , at least ...

[Ricky]

Please tell me we are not having this discussion again...

[Ricky]

An interesting discussion on the P-40

http://yarchive.net/mil/p40.html

[Hubsu]

An interesting discussion on the P-40
http://yarchive.net/mil/p40.html

Yep, Eric, old and grumpy. I once long time a go read the whole 300 post thread through about his claims on P-40, and there were even more "critical views" against his view. He simply plays the Internet-game with putting forward the few places where P-40 is good enough compared to other fighters, while happily forgetting that aerial combat was affected by other attributes of the fighter as well.

Like this:
"Its (Spitfire) speed like every fighter ever built, with a supercharged engine, diminished with altitude." Now guess what happens with speed of a fighter with no supercharger with altitude? Happily forgotten in the answer

[Grieg]

An interesting discussion on the P-40
http://yarchive.net/mil/p40.html

Yep, Eric, old and grumpy. I once long time a go read the whole 300 post thread through about his claims on P-40, and there were even more "critical views" against his view. He simply plays the Internet-game with putting forward the few places where P-40 is good enough compared to other fighters, while happily forgetting that aerial combat was affected by other attributes of the fighter as well.

Like this:
"Its (Spitfire) speed like every fighter ever built, with a supercharged engine, diminished with altitude." Now guess what happens with speed of a fighter with no supercharger with altitude? Happily forgotten in the answer

I think his bias, if it exists, is understandable. Maybe old and grumpy or maybe just grumpy concerning internet combat pilots who are experts without ever having flown, much less having flown the aircraft being debated in combat, as he did.

[Hubsu]

Maybe old and grumpy or maybe just grumpy concerning internet combat pilots who are experts without ever having flown, much less having flown the aircraft being debated in combat, as he did.

True.

R.A.M was and still is (thanks to archives) one of the best places to find anything about aerial combat history. Unfortunately, thanks to the Internet boom, signal to noise ratio has increased dramatically.

[Blaster]

a handful of russian pilots did well in the p39 , most were sent eathward quickly like their comrads in p40s .a few german aces , like galland and molders started their careers in spain , the great majority of p39 and p40 killers did not ..im not sure why the germans had such a wild disparity in success over allied pilots but they certainly did .

the very top allied aces had about 40 kills each , the top russian ace had about 80 kills , most in a p39 ...contrast this to the top LW aces , there were one hundred german pilots who personally shot down over one hundred allied planes ...i know the germans often started earlier ,had more targets and mostly stayed in harness for the duration , still this seems an unbelivable disparity ..if the 109 wasent that much better , was it the training ? ..this seems dubious , i doubt many germans enjoyed getting 350 hours of stick time prior to entering combat , as US pilots did .many germans entered combat with less than half that much time and were aces before they logged 500 hrs tolal .

very few of these lw super aces started in spain , ie hartman didnt really start his career until 1943 . it is also a myth that most of these super pilots were exclusive to the russian front , ie capt priller spent his entire career in the west ,and if we count only his spitfire kills , we see an astounding 70 victorys ..given that german pilots had good planes, good training and lots of combat sorties , still this huge disparity is something of an enigma , no ?

the vast majority of p39s and 40s we sent to russia were shot to peices before the painted red stars were quite dry ..if the curtis was even a slightly better plane at low altitude we should expect that SOME of them could survive long enough to get their first oil change , at least ...

Sigh, woody. I think the problem here exists more with inexperienced Allied pilots then cruddy Allied planes. The AVG apparently did very good maximizing the P-40's strengths-the guys flying in Russia probably didn't know how to do this very well.

Once again, if you're basing your P-40 opinions on some flight sim then I shall disregard it completely.

[Black Hornet]

It was more maneuverable than Mustang, but better to compare it to its contemporaries. MC 202, Hurri, Oscar, Zero, 109 & Spit & LAGG 3. Bested Oscar when using Chenaults tactics. Replaced Hurricanes in North Africa where pilots like Clive killer Caldwell loved it. Bar said it could outturn German fighters below 10.000 feet. Sort of puts it in the middle, better than Hurri or LAGG 3, not better than 109 or Spit.

Sustained Turn rates,

P-40B 273 kph 18.5 sec
P-40E 292 kph 19.5 sec
P-51B 322 kph 23.0 sec
P-51D 329 kph 23.0 sec




By January 1941 James who had been nick-named “Eddie” was serving with 94 Squadron in Egypt. His rank was still Sergeant Pilot. At first the squadron was equipped with the Hawker Hurricanes but when Eddie arrived the squadron was in the middle of changing over to the American made P-40 Kittyhawks. Squadron conversion was completed and was operational by March http://aviationartstore.com/james_franc ... s_P-40.htm






Robert M. DeHaven

He participated in the offensives which took Buna, Lae, Markham Valley, Hollandia and Biak Islands. During these battles, he downed a total of ten enemy aircraft with the P-40, one of the highest P-40 scores for USAAF pilots, other than AVG pilots.
DeHaven liked the P-40, surprisingly, even preferring it to the highly acclaimed P-38. In Eric Bergerud's Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific, DeHaven explains:




If you flew wisely, the P-40 was a very capable aircraft. In many conditions, it could outturn a P-38, a fact that some pilots didn't realize when they made the transition between the two aircraft. The P-40 kept me alive and allowed me to accomplish my mission. The real problem with it was lack of range. As we pushed the Japanese back, P-40 pilots were slowly left out of the war. So when I moved to P-38s, an excellent aircraft, I did so not because I believed that the P-40 was an inferior fighter, but because I knew the P-38 would allow us to reach the enemy. I was a fighter pilot and that was what I was supposed to do.







Nikolay Gerasimovich, how would you evaluate the speed, rate of climb, acceleration, and maneuverability of the P-40? Did it suit you?
N. G. I say again, the P-40 significantly outclassed the Hurricane, and it was far and away above the I-16.

Personally speaking, the P-40 could contend on an equal footing with all the types of Messerschmitts, almost to the end of 1943. If you take into consideration all the tactical and technical characteristics of the P-40, then the Tomahawk was equal to the Bf-109F and the Kittyhawk was slightly better.

Its speed and vertical and horizontal maneuver were good. It was fully competitive with enemy aircraft.

As for acceleration, the P-40 was a bit heavy, but when one had adjusted to the engine, it was normal.

When the later types Bf-109G and FW-190 appeared, the P-40 Kittyhawk became somewhat dated, but not by much. An experienced pilot could fight an equal fight with it.



http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/a ... /part2.htm

[canambridge]

I have seen the P-40 refered to as the "best second best fighter of the war".
Clearly not a piece of junk.

[Black Hornet]

Take more whump than a Mustang. Give it the same 2 stage charger & Merlin 70 & then lets see its speed.

[wooden major]

skilled me 109 pilots shot down entire production runs of p40s personally ,in russia and the med .as to out turning a p38 ,any concurrent single engine fighter would easily out roll a lightning .

as to upping the horsepower ,the curtis was jast too dirty to go really fast .a design from the late 30s ,after all ....for what its worth ,i always loved the shark like lines of the p40 ever since i saw john wayne chopping hapless cringeing jap pilots to bits in the movie "flying tigers " ...with the exception of the AVG ,p40 pilots were historically best served if they avoided contact with enemy fighters .

bear in mind that for every p40 ace ,scores of anzak or soviet p40 driveing airmen tumbled before the guns of me109 experts .marselle ,star of afrika , annihlatted virtually an entire flight ,in under two minutes ,all by himself .

one CO apon takeing command of a decimated desert squadron of curtis pilots ,issued them new red scarfs and advised them that they were now soley in the bussiness of shooting up german ground traffic .and were to avoid further contact with the desert luftwaffe .chenault with his thousands of hilltop chinese observers ,that his AVG would be high above incomming jap formations ,he ordered a diveing pass and NO turning with any jap fighters .dive ,shoot ...and dive away ....not even a zeke could dive with a curtis ,thus the AVG was successful ....alas ,one could not out dive a 109 ,nor out anything really .

a good 109 pilot would kill a good p40 pilot almost every time .as the numbers will attest .

[Black Hornet]

the curtis was jast too dirty to go really fast

Certainly not the X P-40Q at 422 mph. & it could outturn the 109. Bar said as much.


As to dive, the British rated G-2 at 460 mph roughly. An American test pilot hit well over 500 in a P-40 in a dive.

The highest-scoring P-40 ace, Clive Caldwell (RAAF), who scored 22 of his 28½ kills in the P-40, said the type had "almost no vices", although "it was a little difficult to control in terminal velocity".[11] Caldwell said that the P-40 was "faster downhill than almost any other aeroplane with a propeller


Henry Lloyd Child was chief test pilot at Curtis at the time of the development of the P40 and was famous for his test flight that sold many of them to the French Air Force.
He was reported to have set a new speed record of 547 mph in a vertical dive during that test flight.


One should view Caldwells comment with time relevance, this was before Mustang arrived & 190 had not appeared in desert yet. P-40 could certainly outdive a Spitfire.

I think tactics also played into German success, & allied not. Lufbury circle was defensive & Germans figured out how to beat it.

[Gunter_Viezenz]

There is actually a pretty good article about the P-40s being used in the Soviet Union in the journal of Slavic Military Studies.

If anyone has access to that journal I highly reccomand taking a peek.

[wooden major]

i love the shark like shape ..i saw one at reno ,a beauty ..owner had a placard claiming that "real men flew p40s " and had a photo of "the duke " inside one to prove it ....er..the hollywood duke not the desert duke ...ill not dispute which was the "mas macho " of dukedom ..

i will say that luft aces of the ostfront shot down warhawks by the bushel basket ...if IL2 is any guide ,the warhawk is a handful to fly ,not forgiveing and easy to spin-stall ..guns are puny and motor is easily shot out of coolant ...ill take a 109 ,thanks .

asthetically though the shark is pure sex ,hey ..all those soviet warhawks ..were there any great red af aces in the hawk ? they sure did some marvels in the poor wretched aircobra -ski ..which btw is also an IL2 bitch whore slut pig dog ..to fly ,a stallin er.. stalin ..yuk yuk ..

of course some claim that the ruski game designers just made all yank planes crappy on purpose ..old cold war hard on ,mebby ,,,i couldnt say ,not have any real life warbird sticktime ...course they did make the me109 an spit very sweet so ..go figure .