Libya

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Ricky
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Libya

Postby Ricky » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:15 am

So... What are your views on what is going on there, and should we even be involved?
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Re: Libya

Postby Skua » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:19 pm

No!

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't (by the Arab world) anyway, so why bother?

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Re: Libya

Postby Ricky » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:40 am

The other question is why are we meddling in Libya (Dictator who won't allow free elections and used his army against dissenters) but not the Ivory Coast (Elected Leader who refused to stand down when he lost an election and used his army against dissenters)
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Re: Libya

Postby TISO » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:15 am

Ricky wrote:The other question is why are we meddling in Libya (Dictator who won't allow free elections and used his army against dissenters) but not the Ivory Coast (Elected Leader who refused to stand down when he lost an election and used his army against dissenters)

Oil fields and rafineries in the east Liybia. French were the first to push for intervention. They are still smoldering becouse they were the big loosers in the oil stampedo after Gadaffi opend the counrty. UK is afraid they will loose what they got at the time, US had to meddle as usual for interior political reasons (there is a election campaign drive on), Italians as usual jumped to the train which they calculate it will win (plos it is a great diversion from Berlusconi's "bunga-bunga scandal"), Qattar (and gulf states in general) is not to friendly as they dislike north african version of islam (way more tolerant than theirs and way less racist), Russians and Chinese are standing aside letting the interventionalist conutris to take the bad rep and will probaly couse troubles if the interventionalists arm rebels (there is still a lot of undelivered High-Tech stuff for Iran and Syria) as a way to protect their oil and natural gas interests in the region.

Ivory coast is cousing a bit of a problem for French as they had to send in the army (probably LEF - foreiner legion) to protect whites and their interests. That is a bit of a strain on quickly and quietly deployable troop numbers (to be specific LEF).
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: Libya

Postby Christian Ankerstjerne » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:11 pm

Ricky wrote:The other question is why are we meddling in Libya (Dictator who won't allow free elections and used his army against dissenters) but not the Ivory Coast (Elected Leader who refused to stand down when he lost an election and used his army against dissenters)


Conspiracy theories about oil aside, the rebels in Libya were in the process of being thoroughly wiped out by Gadaffi when the coalition intervened. In the Ivory Coast, the rebels* are winning. The UN does have a mission in the Ivory Coast, by the way, though not a military one. If a country can sort out its own dirty business, there is no reason for an outside military intervention; such interventions only cause secret political bargains, adding fuel to a new civil war or even regional war.

* Theoretically, would the former president actually be the rebel, as he is fighting against the lawful president and his forces?

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Re: Libya

Postby Hoosier » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:52 pm

This is simply not the United States' fight.
Today the rebels beg for our intervention and military help to overthrow their government.
Tomorrow... who knows?

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Re: Libya

Postby von woodspeil » Tue May 31, 2011 3:42 am

if we were wise to throw in with any revolt it would have been the recent one in iran where BHO couldnt even be bothered to lend lip service to the brave young rebels .he did of course ,weigh in at once against mubarek in egypt but thats to be expected ,per mubarek being a long time allie in the region and thus an enemy of this adminisration .

it is noteworthy that obama was well vindicated in egypt where his great freinds "the muslim brotherhood " now hold sway over a gazillion angry egyptians ...now ready to march against israel ..and to think that some DOUBTED obama's qualifications as a serious " international statesman "...geez ..

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Re: Libya

Postby ram » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:00 pm

^Did "the muslim brotherhood" celebrated when Bin Laden was killed under the Obama administration?
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Re: Libya

Postby TISO » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:11 pm

Huh Woody2 (von Woody). Let's say he would support Mubarak who lost support of his own army which de facto ruled and is still running egypt (BTW Mubarak was air force general and he flew Il-28's against Israel). Mubarak was a gonner the second the army troops sent to help police didn't fire on protestors and even placed themselves between the police and demonstrators. That second muslim brotherhood was marginalised and army became the saviours of the poeple. But then if you watch only Fox news as Woody1 you wouldn't know that. Are you supporting Assad jr. in syria in his crackdown or Gadaffi's crackdown in Lybia? That would happen in Egypt if army stayed loyal to your beloved Mubarak.

BTW Iranian problems were a bit different. The election result is disputable but in overall Ahmedinajad probably won due to massive support in regions outside Teheran where he did have a lot of impact with delivering essential infrastucture. On the other hand his oponnet was a same as him (just check who he is) and is questionable if he would have the guts to go against supreme leader Khamnei the way Ahmedinajad did.
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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Re: Libya

Postby von woodspeil » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:33 am

tiso ,mubarak ,for all his faults was at least an allie of ours ,obama was way out of line in telling him almost immediately "to step down ".BHO was also WAY out of line in becomeing involved in a libyan civil war ,he did so without even consulting with congress and instead validated his action based apon the approval of the "arab league " ...WTF ? ..in iran i think ANY political shift would be an improvment .

in your opinion WHO is now ,in fact ,the dominant political faction in egypt ?

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Re: Libya

Postby von woodspeil » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:34 am

tiso ,mubarak ,for all his faults was at least an allie of ours ,obama was way out of line in telling him almost immediately "to step down ".BHO was also WAY out of line in becomeing involved in a libyan civil war ,he did so without even consulting with congress and instead validated his action based apon the approval of the "arab league " ...WTF ? ..in iran i think ANY political shift would be an improvment .

in your opinion WHO is now ,in fact ,the dominant political faction in egypt ?

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Re: Libya

Postby TISO » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:39 pm

main political pover in Egypt right now is the army. parties are just names there and nothing is allowed to happen without army aproval BTW that is same as before i.e. they were and still are a simple military dictatorship. They will just name a new figurhead from the army or from outside of it but it will be a lame duck in any case. Do not forget that uprising was after all becouse of raising prices of bread and other essential foodstufs.
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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Re: Libya

Postby TISO » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:43 pm

Interesting article:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27936.htm
the more interesting money part:

It was Gaddafi’s Libya that offered all of Africa its first revolution in modern times – connecting the entire continent by telephone, television, radio broadcasting and several other technological applications such as telemedicine and distance teaching. And thanks to the WMAX radio bridge, a low cost connection was made available across the continent, including in rural areas.
It began in 1992, when 45 African nations established RASCOM (Regional African Satellite Communication Organization) so that Africa would have its own satellite and slash communication costs in the continent. This was a time when phone calls to and from Africa were the most expensive in the world because of the annual US$500 million fee pocketed by Europe for the use of its satellites like Intelsat for phone conversations, including those within the same country.

An African satellite only cost a onetime payment of US$400 million and the continent no longer had to pay a US$500 million annual lease. Which banker wouldn’t finance such a project? But the problem remained – how can slaves, seeking to free themselves from their master’s exploitation ask the master’s help to achieve that freedom? Not surprisingly, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the USA, Europe only made vague promises for 14 years. Gaddafi put an end to these futile pleas to the western ‘benefactors’ with their exorbitant interest rates. The Libyan guide put US$300 million on the table; the African Development Bank added US$50 million more and the West African Development Bank a further US$27 million – and that’s how Africa got its first communications satellite on 26 December 2007.

China and Russia followed suit and shared their technology and helped launch satellites for South Africa, Nigeria, Angola, Algeria and a second African satellite was launched in July 2010. The first totally indigenously built satellite and manufactured on African soil, in Algeria, is set for 2020. This satellite is aimed at competing with the best in the world, but at ten times less the cost, a real challenge.

This is how a symbolic gesture of a mere US$300 million changed the life of an entire continent. Gaddafi’s Libya cost the West, not just depriving it of US$500 million per year but the billions of dollars in debt and interest that the initial loan would generate for years to come and in an exponential manner, thereby helping maintain an occult system in order to plunder the continent.

African Monetary Fund, African Central Bank, African Investment Bank

The US$30 billion frozen by Mr Obama belong to the Libyan Central Bank and had been earmarked as the Libyan contribution to three key projects which would add the finishing touches to the African federation – the African
Investment Bank in Syrte, Libya, the establishment in 2011 of the African Monetary Fund to be based in Yaounde with a US$42 billion capital fund and the Abuja-based African Central Bank in Nigeria which when it starts printing African money will ring the death knell for the CFA franc through which Paris has been able to maintain its hold on some African countries for the last fifty years. It is easy to understand the French wrath against Gaddafi.

The African Monetary Fund is expected to totally supplant the African activities of the International Monetary Fund which, with only US$25 billion, was able to bring an entire continent to its knees and make it swallow questionable privatisation like forcing African countries to move from public to private monopolies. No surprise then that on 16-17 December 2010, the Africans unanimously rejected attempts by Western countries to join the African Monetary Fund, saying it was open only to African nations.

It is increasingly obvious that after Libya, the western coalition will go after Algeria, because apart from its huge energy resources, the country has cash reserves of around €150 billion. This is what lures the countries that are bombing Libya and they all have one thing in common – they are practically bankrupt. The USA alone, has a staggering debt of $US14,000 billion, France, Great Britain and Italy each have a US$2,000 billion public deficit compared to less than US$400 billion in public debt for 46 African countries combined.

Inciting spurious wars in Africa in the hope that this will revitalise their economies which are sinking ever more into the doldrums will ultimately hasten the western decline which actually began in 1884 during the notorious Berlin Conference. As the American economist Adam Smith predicted in 1865 when he publicly backed Abraham Lincoln for the abolition of slavery, ‘the economy of any country which relies on the slavery of blacks is destined to descend into hell the day those countries awaken’.

Regional Unity as an Obstacle to the Creation of a United States of Africa

To destabilise and destroy the African union which was veering dangerously (for the West) towards a United States of Africa under the guiding hand of Gaddafi, the European Union first tried, unsuccessfully, to create the Union for the Mediterranean (UPM). North Africa somehow had to be cut off from the rest of Africa, using the old tired racist clichés of the 18th and 19th centuries ,which claimed that Africans of Arab origin were more evolved and civilised than the rest of the continent. This failed because Gaddafi refused to buy into it. He soon understood what game was being played when
only a handful of African countries were invited to join the Mediterranean grouping without informing the African Union but inviting all 27 members of the European Union.

Without the driving force behind the African Federation, the UPM failed even before it began, still-born with Sarkozy as president and Mubarak as vice president. The French foreign minister, Alain Juppe is now attempting to re-launch the idea, banking no doubt on the fall of Gaddafi. What African leaders fail to understand is that as long as the European Union continues to finance the African Union, the status quo will remain, because no real independence. This is why the European Union has encouraged and financed regional groupings in Africa.

It is obvious that the West African Economic Community (ECOWAS), which has an embassy in Brussels and depends for the bulk of its funding on the European Union, is a vociferous opponent to the African federation. That’s why Lincoln fought in the US war of secession because the moment a group of countries come together in a regional political organisation, it weakens the main group. That is what Europe wanted and the Africans have never understood the game plan, creating a plethora of regional groupings, COMESA, UDEAC, SADC, and the Great Maghreb which never saw the light of day thanks to Gaddafi who understood what was happening.

Gaddafi, the African Who Cleansed the Continent from the Humiliation of Apartheid

For most Africans, Gaddafi is a generous man, a humanist, known for his unselfish support for the struggle against the racist regime in South Africa. If he had been an egotist, he wouldn’t have risked the wrath of the West to help the ANC both militarily and financially in the fight against apartheid. This was why Mandela, soon after his release from 27 years in jail, decided to break the UN embargo and travel to Libya on 23 October 1997. For five long years, no plane could touch down in Libya because of the embargo. One needed to take a plane to the Tunisian city of Jerba and continue by road for five hours to reach Ben Gardane, cross the border and continue on a desert road for three hours before reaching Tripoli. The other solution was to go through Malta, and take a night ferry on ill-maintained boats to the Libyan coast. A hellish journey for a whole people, simply to punish one man.

Mandela didn’t mince his words when the former US president Bill Clinton said the visit was an ‘unwelcome’ one – ‘No country can claim to be the policeman of the world and no state can dictate to another what it should do’. He added – ‘Those that yesterday were friends of our enemies have the gall today to tell me not to visit my brother Gaddafi, they are advising us to be ungrateful and forget our friends of the past.’

Indeed, the West still considered the South African racists to be their brothers who needed to be protected. That’s why the members of the ANC, including Nelson Mandela, were considered to be dangerous terrorists. It was only on 2 July 2008, that the US Congress finally voted a law to remove the name of Nelson Mandela and his ANC comrades from their black list, not because they realised how stupid that list was but because they wanted to mark Mandela’s 90th birthday. If the West was truly sorry for its past support for Mandela’s enemies and really sincere when they name streets and places after him, how can they continue to wage war against someone who helped Mandela and his people to be victorious, Gaddafi?
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"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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TISO
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Re: Libya

Postby TISO » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:16 pm

Not about Libya but Syria. Nice propaganda/hoax effort exposed. I wait for similar things to appear about lybia:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/a-gay-girl-in-damascus-comes-clean/2011/06/12/AGkyH0RH_story.html

For nearly a week, the world followed the saga of Amina Arraf, the blogger who was celebrated for her passionate, often intimate writings about the Syrian government’s crackdown on Arab Spring protesters. Those writings stopped abruptly last Monday, and in a posting on her blog, “A Gay Girl in Damascus,” a cousin said Amina had been hauled away by government security agents.

News of her disappearance became an Internet and media sensation. The U.S. State Department started an investigation. But almost immediately skeptics began asking: Had anyone ever actually met Amina? On Wednesday, pictures of her on the blog were revealed to have been taken from a London woman’s Facebook page.

And Sunday, the truth spilled out: The gay girl in Damascus confessed to being a 40-year-old American man from Georgia.
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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TISO
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Re: Libya

Postby TISO » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:57 pm

"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich


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