Crimea / Ukraine

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Sadurian
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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:41 pm

TISO wrote:You apperantly missed the "Andrei Purgin noted that 8 people were killed when a shell hit a taxi van"

Not at all. If you are implying that the separatist fighter was in the mini-van then that is not supported by the reports. In your link it reports that eight people were killed when 'a shell' (the attack was also identified as being from rockets) hit a taxi van. It doesn't say how many were in the van. Other reports say that, as well as the two killed in the school itself and the 'third body' (identified as the separatist);
Reuters wrote:Near the shelled school, a Reuters team saw two charred bodies in the mini-van, two more on the pavement and another two on the street about 20 metres (yards) away.

A car had also been hit and destroyed. Rebels at the scene said two people had been killed in it and their bodies had been taken away.

Now it is possible that the bodies around the scene were blown from the mini-van, but this is less likely than they were in the vicinity and were killed by the same strike that hit the van.

The point is that the body of the separatist is not grouped with those in the area of the mini-van. Now the discrepancy about the numbers of deaths is understandable given that some severely wounded people would have died later, but the location of the bodies of those initially killed is very important for those trying to reconstruct what happened.

With both sides blaming the other, it would helpful to have a neutral team at the scene to do some forensic work and determine where the rockets or shells came from and how likely it is that the school was actually the intended target (if we are talking about an unguided rocket strike then precision strikes are obviously not an option). Sadly, it is unlikely that such a team would be allowed into the city to do any such work.

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby TISO » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:13 pm

"Givi" commander of seperate battalion-tactical unit "Somali" DNR
http://www.funker530.com/funny-reaction-to-incoming-artillery-fire/

PTRD in action on Donetck airport detachment of commander "Motorola" (officialy seperate marine company) DNR 2:15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV10QMEyvHM&index=4&list=PLY96rNvqGJm84h6ePJOzQ8mgTjRY6l7wj

Strange looking DNR BMW (at 5:43 second ERA block right of the reflector):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8hfVqPM1V4&list=PLY96rNvqGJm84h6ePJOzQ8mgTjRY6l7wj&index=17
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby TISO » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:24 pm

"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Ricky » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:25 pm

Looks like we're all falling out again

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29956277
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Sadurian
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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:32 pm

Only to be expected, sadly.

We've had military incursions between East and West since 1945 (and some time before then, if you count the 'friendly fire' incidents that occurred when forward Soviet and US forces encountered each other in 1944/45). Mostly it's just a test of response, of course, but some fatalities occurred when aircraft were shot down.

Current military posturing is inevitable after Russia's invasion of the Crimea and involvement in SE Ukraine, with both NATO and Putin wanting to warn the other side that they are willing to go further if provoked. Unfortunately, it is exactly this sort of military posturing that is likely to lead to another civilian airliner being shot down (one nearly crashed when it had to swerve to avoid a Russian Il20m surveillance aircraft hovering around the Swedish coast without turning on its transponder), or to a real shooting war erupting.

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:23 pm

It appears that Russia is recovering some of its dead soldiers from the Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30039004

The ones there 'on holiday', obviously.... Y'know. Those holidays where you take your weapons and military hardware with you.

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby TISO » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:27 pm

So wehicle marked Gruz 200 (Cargo 200) crossed FROM Russia INTO Ukraine and then left again. It could well be a wounded who died in Russian hospital being transported to Novorossiya (i don't know but so nobody else does either since the car was not serached either during entry or exit so it is all guesswork at this stage).
BTW Gruz 200 is not merely killed in action but also dead sodier/civilian generaly (in battle, in training or any other accidents, by murder etc...). Terms gruz 200 (dead) and gruz 300 (injured/wounded) or cherny tulipan (Black tulip i.e. aircraft transporting dead) are also used in civilian life
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:17 pm

Sure.

And T-72BM tanks aren't all used for fighting.

And Russian Kornet ATGMs might be being used by foreign tourists in Ukraine.

And Ukrainian troops might have suddenly decided to import and drink Russian mineral water and eat Russian military rations.

And Ukrainian locals might be lying about encountering Russians.

And Russian relatives of the dead might all be mistaken about where they died,

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023

It is just about possible that the mass of circumstantial evidence doesn't mean that Russia is fighting in the Ukraine, but sometimes the obvious conclusion is the correct one.

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby TISO » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:17 pm

Our media took over Russia 1 report and pic. As per our media satelite pic of ukranian MiG-29 (as per what i see on the pic it is acctually Su-27) firing on MH17. Iteresting the photo was supposedly taken by US sattelite (with british one also in vicinity)
http://www.slovenskenovice.si/novice/svet/video-rusi-pokazali-posnetek-satelita-mh17-je-sestrelil-ukrajinski-mig

Video:
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich

Sadurian
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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:59 pm

It's taken them this long to create that? Three months for some basic photo-shopping is a long time, maybe they should have gone to a games company for some CGI, it would have taken less time and been just as convincing.

Honestly - that is obviously for domestic consumption, possibly trying to convince those last few Russians reported to believe pro-Russian forces were responsible for the shooting. That would explain why they haven't made much of an effort. It is just too hilariously naïve to be taken seriously by professional analysts. So many holes.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/15/us-ukraine-crisis-mh17-images-idUSKCN0IZ0EU20141115
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2014/11/14/russian-state-television-shares-fake-images-of-mh17-being-attacked/

Talking of holes, one of the more obvious issues is that the 'image' above shows the attack as a missile launch from the starboard side of MH-17. Two issues - previous official Russian releases have included their pet 'expert' claiming that the attack was with cannon fire which killed the pilots. That latest 'image' shows a missile attack (convenient that the satellite photo should be just as the missile fired and have both aircraft nicely central in the photo), not cannon. Also, the damage is to the port side of the aircraft and there is no damage to the starboard, where that image would have you believe the missile impacted/exploded. It was a shrapnel warhead and the damage was done by multiple small pieces of metal scattering in the warhead's lethal zone. The port side shows exactly that sort of damage. The only way the scenario presented by that 'image' would work is if the missile overshot MH-17 and then came back on itself. In other words - the missile decided for itself that it was going to pretend that the attack came from the starboard side.

Image

Image

The fakers can't even get the fucking basics right when creating their pictures.

There's nothing like a bad official fake picture to really show who's to blame.

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:22 pm

What is interesting to me about his faked 'satellite photo' is that it shows that certain sections in Russia are apparently so desperate that they are releasing this sort of rubbish without getting it checked by analysts with brains. For a start, by choosing to now pretend that a fighter (MiG-29 or SU-27) shot the airliner down it is directly contradicting the accusations it initially made that the airliner was shot down either by initial cannon fire followed up with an IR AAM from an SU-25 'Frogfoot', or by a Ukrainian government-operated SA-11 (BUK).

The aircraft shown on the picture, as TISO points out, is clearly not an SU-25 and nor is it the MiG-29 that the report identifies it as. It is almost certainly an image of a SU-27. If this picture is supposed to be official and has the providence it has claimed for it, then one assumes that it would have been looked at in detail by someone with a little knowledge, if not professional Russian Intelligence analysts. If they mistook a MiG-29 for an SU-27 then god help Russia in any future Intelligence war. Of course, they might also have picked up that the image of the airliner is not a Malaysian Airlines 777 either, as well as the multitude of other errors. I credit the Russian Military Intelligence service with a little more expertise than to make or nor recognise the basic cock-ups that this pictures contains.

So, it has not been examined by Military Intelligence, or if it has, any analysis and report has been ignored. That leaves good old clumsy propaganda department - political media types like the state television directors. Drag in and put together something that can be released to the world media and muddy the waters in time for the G20 summit. Never mind the accuracy, throw enough mud and some might stick.

I think, however, that Russia's propaganda boys have seriously underestimated the intelligence of the rest of the world. Maybe internet restrictions in Russia mean that they are more blinkered as to the internet's possibilities, but any half-competent internet user is able to discredit the picture with minimal effort (as has been demonstrated), to say nothing of it being subjected to professional analysis.

If it was meant to shift the blame to the Ukraine then it has critically backfired, leaving Russia with little credibility and surely increasing conclusions of their (and the pro-Russian separatists') guilt in the matter. I will be interested to see how Russia deals with the picture's discrediting. If they are wise then they will laugh it off and shout 'April Fool', or back away from and deny any involvement. I doubt, however, that that will happen. After all, they have brazenly used computer game footage in previous such releases. It is inconceivable that Russian state-run media does not have state oversight in these cases, so we must assume that the government gives its blessing to these releases.

I really can't see that Russia has any way back in the world opinion battle. It has effectively blotted its copybook so badly that it fatally compromises any truths it chooses to release in future.
Last edited by Sadurian on Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:36 am

The photo is already the target of parodies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN1Q9OSDuTo

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:28 pm


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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby Sadurian » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:56 pm

Very interesting piece about how Russian military recruiters are recruiting Russian veterans for service in the Ukraine, and the officially-imposed secrecy surrounding the whole operation.

http://en.novayagazeta.ru/investigations/64196.html

Maskirovka anyone?

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Re: Crimea / Ukraine

Postby TISO » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:46 pm

Interestingly this didn't get more play in western media
http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/people-extermination-jobs-ukraine/

link directly to the video:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3f9_1413978229
"I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Genghis Kahn

I am not ordering you to attack, I am ordering you to die. Until we die, we can win the time for the arrival of new troops and commanders.
from the order for counter attack from lt.col. Mustafa Kemal to his 57th Brigade on 25th of April 1915 Gallipoli

"I am not without sins. There cannot be an airborne assault general who has no sins. I spit on popularity ratings. I live and serve as I see fit."
Lt. general Lebed Aleksandr Ivanovich


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